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March 29, 2004
Guardians of Order Amber Diceless Open Forum
Following up on this.
It started with a sign on the wall.
Recently, Erick Wujcik and Mark MacKinnon signed a Letter of Intent to transfer all publishing operations for the Amber Diceless Role-Playing Game from Phage Press to Guardians of Order.While the details of this deal have not been finalised, Guardians Of Order wishes to solicit input and suggestions regarding the publishing of a new line of Amber role-playing products.
You are therefore invited to join Mark MacKinnon and Jesse Scoble at a Roundtable Discussion on Sunday morning at Ambercon US in the convention HQ Sunday morning. Please bring your comments, suggestions, questions and creativity.
9 AM to 11 AM. Bring breakfast
That was all it took to make sure I was there. I'm a "morning person", so I'd already had breakfast, but that just means I was awake enough to kept some notes... (Okay, they're a bit scattered and uncertain... but they do reflect what was said, and the simple fact that, at least right now, nothing is fixed.)
Quotes are not exact, but reflect the statements of Mark and Jesse, or of the attendees. (Notes like this one are purely my comments.)
"We can't be everywhere, squashing all the rumors... please help watch the 'net for the strangest." (I'm all with Mark on this... There will soon be an official board on the GoO site, and anything said elsewhere can be assumed less certain that anything there. And that includes this post, which is my memories and impressions NOT firm fact!.)
"There's still a lot to do still. Few things are fixed or decided yet." Some History of the Deal... Last several years, on-and-off discussion between GoO and Erick. This deal is for the Amber rights, NOT ownership of Phage Press. All things Amber (ADRP, Amberzine, AmberCon trademark) go to GoO, Phage remains as-is for future projects. Zelazney estate remains part of the deal. Mark has already spoken to them informally, but this remains to be completed. (And is a major issue, naturally,)
Per Mark, a 2nd edition is the first priority. A line comes next. Amber does not support a "product a month" idea. Slow releases of solid products are more what to expect.
2nd edition is intended to be two parts... First is a retooled Base Book, focused toward beginners and pure canon. Or at least statements to ID rule bits as canon vs. non-canon. (This is since some non-canon bits are there to make gameplay practical.) New players are critical. Without that, the GoO people (Mark and Jesse) wouldn't even be here (they are relatively recent comers to ADRP, at least by the standards of the folk in the room at AmberCon, many of whom have played since pre-publication playtest). Focus for the first book can't be on the current player base, but rather on attracting new players. New players are less open to a flood of optional rules and nuanced presentation, so this will be deferred to...
Second product will be a Companion book (at or near initial rollout) for the more hardcore. Will present options to do Powers (etc.) in numerous different ways, reflecting ADRP as played and retuned.
These two 256-ish page B&W HC to star, around $40ish.
What do people want after this? Setting vs. Gaming books. 1-2 products a year (one of each type, perhaps) Setting books should be canonical facts plus options, not pseudo-cannon. So not like the core book (which will try to make things straightforward and simple), but focused on options. Settings books may exhaust after the first few (Amber City, Chaos, Rebma, Tir, Golden Circle)... Supplements likely to be 128-ish size. "Gaming books" may be guides to powers (Pattern, Trump, Sorcery, Logrus, etc.). Other ideas very possible (even likely).
Amberzine likely continuing in some form.
Metagame concepts (how to build a plot, how to scheme) suggested as another possible series of volumes.
"Adventure books", perhaps based on AmberCon adventures of the past, compiling "great history" of games and ideas, as a way to make both an "advanced options" book and an "adventure book" also suggested. (If anyone at GoO wants a Nine Princes in Hong Kong section, I'm sure 'rain and I could do it. I'm just sayin'.)
Tri-Stat? d20? Not impossible, as market demands. Stand-alone, NOT dual-stat supplements (Amber line books will probably not have d20 info). If d20 is done (and that's very likely a market necessity), there's a good chance it will be positioned as a transitional book from familiar d20 toward dicelessness rather than as an endpoint of itself. Perhaps use ADRP has "house diceless" so future GoO products could be d20/Tri-Stat/ADRP.
Maps in sourcebooks, yes or no? The "Visual Guide" was, as is familiar to Amber players, trashed fairly roundly. Castle? Kolvir? Amber City? Arden? All of Shadow? Perhaps MULTIPLE within one volume (just like Elder presentations in the rulebook).
Power Construction? Yes, as part of the game (though perhaps not the base book). Power books certainly should talk a lot about power synergies, extensions, advancement.
Communication with the fans? Via Amber Mailing List for major announcements. GoO Board as the central place. Create a distinctly AMBER sub-site. Ambercons will remain a channel. (As part of the staff of AmberCon North, I think this is GREAT news!)
Comments
Perhaps use ADRP as "house diceless"...
Wouldn't Nobilis want that position?
Posted by: Jadasc at Mar 29, 2004 7:51:43 AM
This seems a much more tighter relationship between GOO and Amber than with Nobilis, which GOO treats very handsoff.
Posted by: Jere at Mar 29, 2004 8:33:05 AM
They're fooling themselves if they think there are new players...
Posted by: Unseelie at Mar 29, 2004 11:25:11 AM
So, as someone who has played and GMed Amber, I'm supposed to be excited that they'll be coming out with two hardcovers for a total price of $80 which is specifically not targeted at me? I think I'll give it a pass.
I'm also not impressed with the idea that D20 is "very likely a market necessity."
Posted by: Bill at Mar 29, 2004 11:37:31 AM
Firstly, cool! Must... get... stuff... (that's the fanboy inside me speaking, though I suspect my girlfriend will also share this).
Secondly, Nobilis wouldn't be good for a general diceless system IMHO: it makes some pretty specific universe assumptions. You could strip those out, but you wouldn't be left with very much.
Thirdly, there are always new players out there. We've just introduced two new people to a campaign (which my girlfriend is running), three more in a one off, and a possibility of starting another game for four more (including some of the three) sometime soon. There's no reason why it can't attract new players.
Posted by: Sean at Mar 29, 2004 12:06:38 PM
Hmm. Having d20 editions might drive sales, if for no other reason than hard-core players buying copies just to burn them. :)
Personally, while I have no problems with d20, and use it to run several of my campaigns, I just can't see it working with Amber unless its rules are radically different from normal d20. If I had to do it, I'd ditch classes and the standard experience table, and focus on using skills and feats to replicate the "character building" portions of Amber Diceless. I could see perhaps using a generic point system to buy up feats, skills, saves, etc. Regardless of the path taken, I think it's important that Amber's rules remain very different -- I'd hate to see it become just another campaign setting for D&D.
Posted by: Ken Newquist at Mar 29, 2004 12:14:26 PM
Maybe d20 Amber would offer insight on how to play "D&D 3.5 diceless".
That would be worth picking up and laughing at in the store, anyway.
But really, Amber d20 is like trying to fly to the moon with a bicycle.
Posted by: ashultz at Mar 29, 2004 2:22:21 PM
People have been playing Amber, the way it is, for over 10 years. Yes, the main book kind of sucks, and the second book sucks even more, but I cannot imagine why it needs a whole series of splats or a new system or God knows.
The attractions to Amber were --
1. An insanely simple system that anyone could learn, since it was the no system system.
2. One book, so the investment in the actual game was very low. Two if you felt really enthusiastic.
3. Extremely open-ended, so that people could do anything they wanted with it, as long as anything they wanted was invariably "save the universe from Brand/Logrus/Dworkin's Sneeze."
My kneejerk reaction isn't real positive, so I've refrained from saying anything. I will continue to say absolutely nothing, except I do not believe that Amber needs a huge line of books or a new system.
Posted by: Emily Dresner-Thornber at Mar 29, 2004 3:02:07 PM
Nobilis is published by GoO, but is independently produced, as I understand things. This and its less-than-universal nature both argue against it being a house engine.
The two initial books will not BOTH be "not for the current fans"... One is for the newcomer (ADRP as stated), the other for those ready to move on (ADRP as played). Or that is how I took Mark's comments.
http://www.guardiansorder.com/amber is now in place, by the way. And Mark says some of these things in, I'm sure, more accurate ways there already.
Posted by: Ghoul at Mar 29, 2004 8:32:38 PM
Nice to see a focus on growing the player base, rather than just continuing to serve the folks who've been playing since pre-release. The lack of anything at all new for the Amber RPG has been beaten to death elsewhere. I'd personally love to see "Rebma' or 'Nine Princes in Hong Kong' get published.
Though if forced to choose between the two, I think I'd have to pick 'NPiHK'.
Posted by: Matthew Goldman at Mar 30, 2004 4:55:35 AM
On the new players thing:
I introduced a maintainance man to the game this weekend at the hotel. I met him in the elevator. He loved it. He'd never roleplayed before. Ever.
I think GoO has a base of buyers from their anime stuff that is willing to make leaps with them. Not all their anime buyers, but I bet there is a percentage who will at least try it out. (Now if these folks will like Amber is another thing entirely.)
I think if Mark's market research didn't show he could at least break even on this, he wouldn't try to do it. He's a smart guy. I think there is enough potential new players out there to make publishing a 'beginners' core book worth it.
Posted by: Liz T at Mar 30, 2004 7:32:52 AM
Market research? The day I believe any roleplaying company does market research except WotC will be a glorious day indeed.
I think GoO's 'market research' is all gut-instinct. Hopefully it will be as good for them as previous ones have been. But lets be honest. GOO isn't doing this because they know it will work. They are doing it out of love of the material and hope. Just like everyone else in the RPG industry.
Posted by: Jere at Mar 30, 2004 11:03:30 AM
(grin) All the best market research is gut instinct. What I mean is he knows the market, approx. how many copies of what he can sell, and has a good idea of how much cross-over he'll get.
But again, I don't think Mark would do this if he didn't think he could at least break even on it. He can love the material and the game all he wants, but he has a company to run and he's a good businessman. There is no guarantees on any of this stuff, but there are good bets and bad bets, and I don't think this is a bad one.
Posted by: LizT at Mar 30, 2004 11:19:46 AM
A beginner's book won't just be bought by beginners, anyway. I think anyone involved with the Amber community knows that there are plenty of us who will buy the new book just because its that: a new book. We'll have to own it.
As far as Nobilis goes, the system is beautiful, but nowhere near as flexible as Amber. So, Amber would work much better as a house diceless system.
Posted by: Nuadha at Mar 30, 2004 4:40:45 PM
Ok, look, I love the DRPG. Played it run it, yadda yadda yadda. I'll totally buy that you could not convert the DRPG to d20 without animals being born with two heads and the skies pouring fire.
But we're not talkign about converting the DRPG, we're talking about the books.
The books about a swinging seventies immortal with magic powers and a family he gets in sword fights with. I cannot imagine this NOT being the sort of thing you could do in D&D, to say nothing of the vastly more flexible world of general d20/OGL material. The mechanics only need to support cool magic and cooler fight scenes, and d20 can do both. Hell, if you want to talk polticial mechanics, there's plenty of illustration that d20 can do _that_ better too (thank you Mr. Aylott). Intrigue, style, NPCs - that's all going to be in the hands of the GM and in how the book is going to be written, and the system's just not going t have an impact on this.
The knee-jerk "The bad fun hurts us!" responses that I'm seeing in a lot of places really seem to have a lot more to do with the DRPG and all it has become than any strengths or weaknesses of going d20.
Posted by: Rob Donoghue at Mar 30, 2004 5:36:33 PM
I admit that it has been a while since I ran a D&D game, but the above comment implies there is no sweat in d20 allowing a doctor, songwriter, poet, swordsman (who is capable of regenerating his eyes) to fight his way through several hundred men in one afternoon while climbing a thousand foot high stair.
Is that true? In the old-y days, the immortals and gods of D&D were incredible storehouses of "special effects" but getting there was a several page list of bookkeeping.
The Amber genre is about unusual competancy and toughness--yet the character sheet fits on a business card.
Posted by: Arref at Mar 30, 2004 6:33:01 PM
Writing a d20/D&D game which allows a doctor/songwriter/poet/swordsman with superhuman strength and ocular regeneration to fight his way up a staircase through any number of soldiers in whatever timeframe you like is a trivial exercise. No exagerration. Were we talking old school D&D
Certainly, the point about the business card is a valid one, but only to a point. The d20 version might take up a full sheet of paper, with excesive detail, perhaps 2, but we are by no mens talking about somethign that's going to necessitate 6-12 page character folios with exacting detail regarding how heavy the boot on the left foot is versus the boot on the right foot. Certainly, the bulk of people who do play Amber like to go detail-light (with some obvious exceptions), but I assert that that may not be true for the bulk of people who might play Amber. For many players, a slightly greater level of detail will make the game more appealling, since it makes certain things less cut and dried, and it removes certain subjective interpretations that can result in seeming oddities. To pull an egregious example, the fact that Benedict is the best lockpick in the universe is jarring to some, but it's the case as written. For an experienced DRPG player, this can be taken in stride and adapted as needed, but for a new player, lookign for something out of the box, that sort of thing may seem just a little weird.
And honestly, the good news is that they're going to do both. If GoO were going to force us all to switch at gunpoint then I could accept the wailing and gnashing of teeth, but that's obviously not the case. Now, a valid question could be raise about the supplements which will be coming out, and how much of their content will be dedicated to d20-only material versus DRPG applicable material. It's a tricky line to walk. But it's a question of a successful line with soem unusabel material versus a line with little or no support. No right answer, but I knwo where my vote lies.
The bottom line, as i see it is this: I could run a rock solid Amber game with d20 tomorrow if I needed to. I think the only problem you're going to run into is that Amber is something that the people working on it love so much that they're not going to settle for merely rock solid - they're going to want it to be exceptional. And I can cope with that. :)
Posted by: Rob Donoghue at Mar 30, 2004 8:17:09 PM
Curse you cut an paste! You've won this day, but I will have my revenge!
The first paragraph should have ended with "Were we talking old school D&D, AD&D or the like it would definately be a challenge, but for D&D3E/d20 it really is as easy as all that.
Posted by: Rob Donoghue at Mar 30, 2004 9:41:31 PM
Appreciate the response about the streamlined features of d20.
I'm all for bringing more Players to the genre and am quite sure that d20 Amber can do that.
Though I'd like to see the base system get its upgrade first, of course.....
Posted by: Arref at Mar 30, 2004 9:59:05 PM
To see how flexible the OGL version of D20, one needs look no further than Mutantas and Masterminds (which could make an excellent base for an Amber d20 book). To keep Amber as an "official d20" book would be a bit harder, but it could be done. Sure, the majority of us DRPG players would never even think of running Amber in a system like d20, but the d20 Amber books wouldn't be for us. As long as they keep printing and supporting the DRPG line, I'm perfectly fine with them branching out in d20, Tri-Stat, GURPS or whatever other system they think people may want to play Amber in.
Posted by: Nuadha at Mar 31, 2004 12:49:12 PM
Wow, now GoO owns the rights to two terrible roleplaying games!
I kid...I kid.
Actually, three.
Posted by: Jared A. Sorensen at Mar 31, 2004 10:03:03 PM
Every genre, everywhere, has a form of purists vs. nonpurists, oldschool vs newschool, whatever. basically snobs vs. philistines.
For those of you who live in larger urban areas blessed with lots of players to choose from, it's easy to complain about adulterating the game with D20 or whatever. For those of us unfortunates who must make do with what we have, a D20 Amber would be the way to get these D&D-addicted bastards to try something other than dungeon crawls. I am running D20 Wheel of Time, despite my detestation for the world setting, because right now it's the only thing playing. For those of us military overseas, the military exchange (department store) carries D&D, D20 and not much else.
For those of you whining about potentially reinvesting $80 for more books, I have no sympathy. I would plunk down $1000 in a heartbeat if it would get me a group of decent players. The ones I am playing with now are coming along but it's babysitting of the highest order, since I just can't ditch any one of them and look for more. There just ain't no more. My player pool is basically made up of young military guys and their wives or girlfirends, and my wife, sometimes. This is in the face of deployments and lots of long work hours right now, due to the ongoing "war on terror," Iraq and Afghanistan ops etc.
I heard this same type of silliness when they started talking about LOTR movies, the purist bemoaning the "fact" that the movies would dumb it down, leave parts out, ruin it, yada yada yada. What bull. The movies created a revival that I welcomed, being a longtime LOTR fan. My Amber characters have been to Middle Earth,back when I had an actual Amber game to GM. It's a great setting for certain types of games. The movies certainly didn't ruin things. It's all about synergy.
So, anything that brings me more players, and in hopes of better players, is all right by me. Anything that gets it out into the common public is good. Trisystem Amber, D20 Amber, Amber:The Gathering, Amber Monopoly, Amber Risk, Amber movie, Amber miniseries, Amber flavored condoms, bring it on!!!!
Posted by: Wired*Nun at Jul 15, 2004 11:04:21 AM
I'm soliciting player interest for a PBF AMBER DRPG game at http://tgv.online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3311
Posted by: wired*nun at Jul 15, 2004 11:32:41 AM
O.K. first of all it's A.D.R.P, what the heck do they think the "D" is for? In case they don't know it means DICELESS. I play in an ongoing campaign in Kansas City, we have been playing since '92 and love the game. When I told my other 7 members about the new books coming out they were geeked, each ready to shell out whatever money was necessary to get the books. However, when I told them that the new Amber books would likely be set up for D20, they all to a man (and 1 woman) said they wouldn't play it. Why? Amber is meant to be played without boundaries, no saving throws, no armor classes, and most of all no dice.
I walked into a comic/rpg store the other day and asked if they had the shadowknight book in stock, the employee said no, that they only carried "real role playing games there". He explained that Amber "sucked" because there were no dice involved. Personally I think the point based system is wonderful, and makes character creation an absolute joy, while keeping a fluid and flexible gaming environment. However, if the only way to make the game more marketable is to involve dice somehow, please be my guest.
For me and my friends though, we'll stick with the original 2 books, and play the diceless version, it won't cost any money, and it's already a system so well conceived that it makes anything possible all by itself. Just like Roger's books.
Posted by: mike lau at Aug 11, 2005 6:02:27 AM
Guardians of Order is reformating their web space and forum. Hopefully to be back soon. Meanwhile...
http://bb.bbboy.net/shadowsofamber
Posted by: Arref at Aug 19, 2005 9:16:53 AM
