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February 03, 2005
Acid Test Graduation
Ken Kesey hoped the Acid Test would be a doorway, a passage from one state of being to another, a gateway towards a new way of living our lives on this earth. He tried to tell a generation of kids about the magnificent universe that lay beyond the doorway... and a generation of kids stood around, oohing and aahing at the doorway itself, and congratulating themselves for finding it. And Ken said, no, no, you have to go through the doorway, and the kids just kept milling around, saying things like, "Wow, would you look at that doorway... Cool doorway, Ken... Hey, I'm going to camp out right here in this doorway forever..." While another group of kids, missing the point just as completely, picked stupid fights with Kesey, saying, "Actually, I think it's really more of an archway than a doorway..." or "Screw you, man, windows are where it's at!"
This little hippy parable was inspired by a comment by Jonathan Walton at Vincent's blog about the "post-Forge diaspora." Jonathan took the post back to the Forge, and in this thread, Ron Edwards dropped a bit of a bomb:
THE FORGE WILL EVENTUALLY CLOSE DOWN.
Yup. I've faced it and admitted it, months ago. Clinton and I have discussed a variety of "exit strategies," ranging from simply turning over the reins to others and walking away, to actual software-based transformations into another kind of site entirely, to whatever.
My current thinking is this - to encourage as many possible spin-off sites as possible, but also to encourage an ongoing acknowledgment among them that each other exists. (I have my own notions about what my personal such site will be.) So rather than dissolution, think of the Forge possibly as the Big Bang.
I don't know if he'd like the comparison, but Ron reminds me of Ken Kesey some days. When all the kids are arguing about the doorway, it is bold and perhaps wise to just prop the door open and walk on through.
Note that Ron's not talking about pulling the plug on the Forge tomorrow, or the next day. He says, "I'd like the Forge to be obsolete (replaced by con programs, publishing-helping sites, discussion sites, etc) long before it vanishes." But it's interesting to think about what a post-Forge world of thoughtful gaming might look like, and about a "post-Forge Forge," for that matter.
(Please don't post here to tell me that you never liked the color the door was painted or the way it was hinged. I do invite you to discuss the terrain beyond.)
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Comments
The first thought to come out of my mind is that next generations of communities on the web usally don't form until one of two things happen:
1) Enough people get frustrated at the general operating principles of the original (to an extent 20x20 can be seen as on type of reaction)
2) The original dies and goes away and folks try to figure out what to do now.
I have a bunch of other thoughts but hey require more processing before I'm ready to share beyond a ranting to my friends in person kind of way.
Posted by: Jere at Feb 4, 2005 11:51:26 AM
Well, follow the process of this thread:
1) I reacted to something on Vincent's blog
2) I posted my thoughts on the Forge
3) We're now discussing it on 20x20
Now we have a discussion that's taking across three different locations, involving multiple groups of people who overlap like Ven diagrams. Also, the story sounds different wherever you hear it, thanks to context and the voices involved.
This is the future of internet conversation, I think. Pluralism. Overlapping groups and interests. Everybody hears a different portion of the story because we're all in tune with a different set of sources.
Posted by: Jonathan Walton at Feb 4, 2005 1:08:55 PM
What Jonathan points out is already going on, right now.
The point is, I think, that the Forge's mission statement is about producing RPGs, not about theory. The reason that theory moved there was simply because there was no other place to discuss it. Now that theory discussion has blossomed in so many places (anyway, 20x20, livejournal, other blog sites) it makes sense for the Forge to refocus on design. In the comments of anyway Clinton mentions Play and Write Your Game Already month, and other motions that direction.
This is good business.
yrs--
--Ben
Posted by: Ben Lehman at Feb 4, 2005 3:30:08 PM
Well, this might be odd as a comment on a blog, but for topical discussion I prefer a good threaded forum (like UseNet/rgfa or Gaming Outpost or phpBB/The Forge) to a bunch of blogs. My reasoning:
1) Forums are divided by topic, while even nominally gaming blogs rarely stay on a specific topic.
2) Forums are searchable -- i.e. you can search through both thread starts and comments for a term or phrase. This is difficult for a set of blogs.
3) Forums can be browsed by user -- i.e. you can see both threads which a user has started, and his replies to other users' threads. It is extremely difficult to see all of a given user's comments on several different blogs.
I'm not clear what the philosophical difference is intended to be for the "Diaspora" beyond the door as opposed to what was behind the door. Is it some insight that comes from the shift of format from threaded posts to blog entries with comments? Is it the cultural shift based on hosting and layout? In Site Discussion on The Forge, I've been an advocate that the Forge should open up to other forums and sites more. The Forge layout is that it pushes mainly the articles and reviews hosted on its site (the majority authored by Ron), while links out are presented differently and de-emphasized. For my technical reasons above, I'd prefer to have a forum but open it up more to outside ideas rather than diverging into a bunch of more-or-less personal blogs. On the other hand, it's not my site.
Posted by: John Kim at Feb 7, 2005 3:00:04 PM
I'm just some guy, not an owner or moderator or organizer or anything, but I'll eat my hat if the post-Forge doesn't have forums a-plenty. In fact, it won't surprise me if two years from now I'm moderating forums of my own.
The Forge has been a network. Soon it'll be a point of contact between networks. I think that's cool.
Posted by: Vincent at Feb 7, 2005 4:06:42 PM
I think deliberately creating a diaspora is an interesting idea. ("May you live in interesting times.") The risk is dissolution of the community; I've done a lot of Internet community building and the software is more important than one might think at first glance. Even taking the same database and the same software and putting it at a different URL has an effect; closing down a site entirely without specifying a new hub would be huge.
Clinton's got what I think will be a great approach, though. Aggregation rules. Don't forget to include LiveJournal.
This is the wrong place to note this, but I hope he uses www.indie-rpgs.com as the location for the aggregator. The name won't be quite right but the value of not losing all that search engine juice and the links and so on? Immense.
Posted by: Bryant at Feb 7, 2005 6:11:19 PM
there was an article in the NY Times last sunday about the life expectancy of Literary Journals being about ten years if they make it to a second issue. The article was in regard to the Paris Review and the Death of George Plimpton. Part of the article said that few reviews survive a transition of editors, but that some of those that do have found ways to expand their perview beyond that of just a review. One of the examples was McSweeneys which has two magazines one that is a review, one that is a collection of group reviews (Believer is the title I think) and a series of writing workshops. In some ways the forums at the forge are like these side ventures and there have been close ties with some outside groups (like the 24 hour game comps) which fill these sort of functions; but, if the forge wishes to continue in perpituity there has to be more of this kind of growth.
Posted by: thor at Feb 8, 2005 10:40:32 AM
Having a bunch of separate, smaller forums has a similar problem to blogs, for me -- though not as severe. i.e. I can't do a unified search or unified browsing by author. In practice, I will only regularly visit a handful of sites (5 or 6) during a week. If something isn't on this short list, it is off my radar and I may go for months without my checking it.
As I understand it, Clinton's idea of an aggregator would create a set of links out to content on blogs and/or forums on other sites. However, I think this still doesn't let you search by content or select by author (i.e. see a user's comments). Still, it would be a good thing.
Posted by: John Kim at Feb 8, 2005 8:08:58 PM
Frankly, as people some people have already commented over on The Forge, I don't really see the need for this sort of forcing the whole diaspora thing. Yes, it's a cool idea in theory to push everyone out of the nest, let a thousand schools of thought contend, etc., and it may well result in some people coming up with really cool ideas in smaller forums (be they blogs or something else). I've really liked having a central place to find out about all of the ideas and (more importantly) cool games that the people on The Forge have shared though, and I'll miss having one central location for that. If Clinton comes up with some form of aggregator, that'll be grand, and definitely better than having to spend all sorts of time hitting bookmark after bookmark, or keeping up with every post that flows into my RSS reader, but I don't see how that's a better idea than what's going on now.
Posted by: Michael Curry at Feb 8, 2005 10:51:46 PM
I don't think its so much "forcing" a diaspora, as much as encouraging one to be fully in effect by the time they shut things down. It's already forming/formed, so I don't think its so much as telling people to go build one, as much as its saying, "The afterparty's over here!"
Posted by: Chris at Feb 9, 2005 12:20:56 AM
In response to John's comment about only looking at 5 or 6 site in a sitting. one of the things that need to take place is that those people who enjoy a "type" of game should take up the slack as aggregators themselves. John has performed a herculean and valuable service to all of us but he shouldn't be the only one. perhaps when others gather material in their own loving fashion it would take some of the load off of john's shoulders and make for a better world.
Posted by: thor at Feb 9, 2005 11:09:05 AM
As for gathering material and links, I'd like to mention for anyone who missed it, the RPG Theory Topics wiki on Doyce Testerman's site, as well as the other wiki pages.
http://random.average-bear.com/TheoryTopics/HomePage
I so initially seeded this with a big glossary of RPG theory terms and topics. But it's a wiki and is being updated by lots of people.
Posted by: John Kim at Feb 9, 2005 2:00:15 PM
OK, so two confessions: 1. I was mostly just goofing around when I set up that "through the door" analogy at the top of this post; it really has more to do with my thoughts about Ken Kesey and the drug culture than my thoughts about gaming. 2. I was also setting up something for my Dungeon Majesty game, where the PCs encountered a satirical Forge analog called "the Secret Door." That said, note Ron's post in this thread about Capes, a supers game that's getting buzz at the Forge:
Sorcerer, InSpectres, and the Pool cried just a little bit louder in the wilderness than some of their predecessors and contemporaries, among which they were quirky little perverts. Dust Devils and Universalis found and opened the door. My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Capes, Fastlane, Primetime Adventures, Trollbabe, and tons of others were "there to be found" on the other side.
See? See?
Posted by: Rob at Mar 6, 2005 10:26:59 AM
Oh, I didn't provide the link.
Posted by: Rob at Mar 6, 2005 10:28:14 AM
