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April 10, 2006

More about Nine Worlds

Posted by Neel Krishnaswami on April 10, 2006 at 07:32 PM

This is a report about our latest session of Nine Worlds.

So, the basic way I'm running with this game is that I take the PCs' Muses as what the players are interested in, and I have some notes to myself about what I like, and I try to mix the two. Basically, I'm using Chris Chinn's flag framing and conflict posts as my guide to design sessions, basically just listing myself as another player. One difference I'm seeing is that my players have very concrete goals in their Muses, whereas the stuff that I-the-GM am interested in is a bit more vague and large scale.

For myself that I want to run out lots of different oddball politics for the Nine Worlds. So far, each of the gods and Titans have some kind of large-scale political worldview which shapes their rule. For example, Prometheus is an absolute anarchist who believes that mankind should be completely free of all divine meddling, even meddling to prevent a Stalin or Idi Amin. Apollo, on the other hand, sees humans as possessing immense potential, and has taken it upon himself to make sure that people live up to their potential. Solar society is a relentlessly meritocratic, high-culture, and competitive (kind of like if you crossed PBS with a Japanese cram school) with Olympics every four years to determine who wins the Nobel prize.  Artemis, on the Moon, has an ecological worldview, and she values cultural diversity just as much as biodiversity. However, she values individuals only as part of a social or biological ecosystem, and not for their particular personhood.

This is big picture stuff, and what I really like about Nine Worlds is how easy it is to go from the backdrop right to stuff at the level of character and conflict. So, the game started on the Moon, and then I whipped up a Pythogorean agent who was trying to get the Pythagorean philosophy approved by the Cultural Practices Authority. The Pythagoreans are a secret society who want to master the secrets of advanced science and magic, and who are widely believed to pursue such knowledge regardless of the risks. One of our players coined the phrase "weapons of magical destruction" to describe them -- she was the one playing a Solar scholar-Archon searching for their secrets even as she plotted their ruin.

Now, being a Pythagorean wasn't illegal on the Moon, in the same way that being a Communist or Nazi  wasn't technically illegal in 1950s America. However, if the Pythagoreans were an approved form of cultural diversity, then they could work in the open and take government support  -- even though Artemis despised them and what they stood for, they were betting she had enough integrity to accept the CPA ruling.

Naturally, the Pythagorean agent was one PC's (ex-?) wife. The question mark is there because the PC had died and escaped from Hades, and in the meantime she had married someone else. Perseus, that other guy, was of-course terribly honor- and rule-bound, to the point that he would explode when her double life was exposed, even though he was a nice guy otherwise. On top of all this, we had a robot, which Perseus had captured from the PCs in the last session -- and Perseus had been magically compelled to love and care for it. Naturally, the third PC was after the robot.

So the story-level dynamics of this game were great, and the Muses worked really well in letting me integrate all our interests together. I did screw up Perseus's Muses, though -- one wasn't in concrete goal form, so I couldn't resolve it, and the other one I just plain forgot to resolve. I think the game  would have worked better if I had done that right, since Perseus would have been more active and less reactive.  I'm going to edit them to fix these two bugs for next session.

The biggest difficulty I had was that the game just plain flows better when you are constantly running conflicts. Now, when you're doing free narration, you can't really resolve or change Muses. However, the way conflicts work means that it's very difficult to get an interplay going between the players -- one player wins narration rights, and the other doesn't. If we had more give and take, more interplay, I think it would have been easier to actually roleplay. As things stood, a lot of our narrations were quite sketchy, because it was hard to get really adequate support from the other players.

At the same time, the narration is VITALLY important to making the game work. Mechanically, there is a simple and obvious optimal strategy for bidding. This means that if you want to create interesting choices for the player, the different sorts of narration that the player can do (for example, Arete versus Hubris) must lead to very different story-level consequences. At the end of the session, someone suggested that an angry Artemis should show up next session, because there had been so many uses of Hubris. I noticed strong, immediate support for this idea, so I am not going to be fool enough to ignore the grassroots.

So there's a fault line in the game (or at least, in our style of playing it) there. I don't have a clear idea what to do about this, though. If any of my players are reading, I'd appreciate their thoughts in the comments, as well as any observations or suggestions from you all in the peanut gallery. :)

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Comments

You said:

...the way conflicts work means that it's very difficult to get an interplay going between the players -- one player wins narration rights, and the other doesn't. If we had more give and take, more interplay, I think it would have been easier to actually roleplay. ...

I agree with this 100%.

I think if there were an analogy to the Dogs in the Vineyards bid-and-raise mechanic, perhaps where the players went back and forth, playing cards from their hands one by one, with a little piece of narration to go with each card, with the capstone coming when one player sets down his cards and says, "I'm out," it would be more exciting, more engaging, and would have more "roleplaying" as opposed to "story gaming," if you catch my distinction.

Posted by: Vaxalon at Apr 11, 2006 8:03:08 AM

I'd like to hear a little more about how the card-based resolution system shakes down in actual play. Defining the "conflict" in "conflict resolution" has become something of a bugaboo for some of my gaming lately.

Posted by: Jeffwik at Apr 11, 2006 10:09:40 AM

The conflict definition part of Nine Worlds is something that works quite well, actually. Each player says what they want to happen next, and then you figure out which characters are in opposition to each other. Unlike, say, Dogs, each person explicitly says what they want out of the conflict, so you can have a conflict where one person is like, "Atalanta kills Meleager", and the other player says "Meleager falls in love with Atalanta". Then, you figure out which players' narration actually conflict with each other, and those people are in opposition. Observe that a "conflict" in Nine Worlds just means that two people want to narrate things that aren't compatible with each other. This kind of formal, logical conflict gets turned into story-style conflict, because you're playing characters with extreme (and incompatible) agendas and trying to narrate their success.

There's not much to say about the actual cardplay. You draw your hand, and play your cards, and whoever puts down a better hand just wins, pretty much.

Then you rank the hands and narrate what happens from lowest hand to best hand. This is the part that's hardest for me. I desperately need the help of the other players do a good job of describing the scene and the action, and the explicit order of narration makes it harder to elicit (or offer) that help. So I feel my narrations were really flat and uninspired last session. Luckily, the focus on Muses meant that the conflicts were about stuff that was very interesting to all of us. But paradoxically this makes me feel even worse -- I didn't help the other players as much as I could/should have on what was really important to them!

Posted by: Neel Krishnaswami at Apr 11, 2006 10:33:49 AM

I have had a nagging feeling that something didn't feel right about how Nine Worlds played out. I think you may have explained what it was, with how narration works. It's a lot easier to introduce little raises or add incremental details to an ongoing conflict that other people are also adding to than it is to narrate the entire conflict on the spot. For one thing, you get some time to think while they take their turn, and for another you can build on their details. Neither of these work with how we've been playing Nine Worlds - possibly with Nine Worlds in general.

I like very much how the worlds each take a moral/political viewpoint that you can kinda say "yeah, that's a good idea" and then push that idea to the point of absurdity. Apollo's attempts to improve humanity sounds great as part of an overall culture, but without some other forces restricting it, it is a bit terrifying. This helps fix one problem I had when reading the book: that none of the gods actually stood for any higher ideals or had any motives that weren't selfish, deceptive or political. So now some gods clearly do have ideologies you can at least sort of sympathize with, though I don't know if I'd want to serve any of them. And that throws off the Arete versus Hubris issue some, though Hubris hasn't been strongly tied to defying the gods in our game. Of course, all of this might change, particularly the last bits, with the introduction of actual Olympians.

Posted by: Nick Wedig at Apr 11, 2006 12:16:29 PM

Neel (and Fred): I hear what you are saying. I understand and recognize your concerns that roleplaying and narration is more difficult without interplay.

But, what I'm not hearing is any notion that interplay can happen as narrators ask "have any ideas, gang?" Or, "So, what kind of magic were you going to use, loser? Maybe I'll include that." Or whatever similar collaboration.

In my experience, this happens all the time. The only difference between that and what you're seeking is codified rules authority that interplay must mean anything at all. Rather, the rules say something like "The narrator says what happens; the buck stops there." But, the book also says something like "The narrator should actually seek out some suggestions and talk with fellow players about their failed intentions, ideas for what's neato, etc."

So, this idea I've just presented and what you're talking about are SLIGHTLY different, but I view them as overlapping. It seems to me (and is my experience in play) this alleviates, if not remedies, all sorts of "feeling flat" or "no interplay" concerns.

Posted by: Matt Snyder at Apr 11, 2006 4:02:37 PM

Thanks for commenting, Matt! I was definitely hoping to try something different next session, because figuring out how to fulfill the potential in this game would be awesome. Groping around for the right words, I guess what I'd really like is for some way for the winner of a conflict to "be the GM" in the old-school sense -- like, everybody has input but the winner is still the man or woman in charge.

Posted by: Neel Krishnaswami at Apr 11, 2006 4:32:34 PM

I had a similar problem with Primetime Adventures' conflict resolution system for much the same reason, and I found that a nice trick was to hold off on actually drawing the cards until as late as possible.

So, instead of "You face off against Herakles" * draw cards * "You win, what happens?" "um..." you get "Herakles bashes in the door." "Oh yeah, well I knee him in the groin and run into the bathroom." "Ok, he's stunned, but he keeps coming. He's gonna bash that door down" "Screw that, I'm going out the window before he gets through the door." "Ok, that sounds like the point where someone will win or lose, draw." *draw cards * "Ok, you win, what happens?" "I totally get out the window before the door gets smashed down and Herakles shakes his fist out the window as he sees me melt into the crowd below."

Posted by: Bill at Apr 11, 2006 5:02:23 PM

Cool, Neel. You wrote: I guess what I'd really like is for some way for the winner of a conflict to "be the GM" in the old-school sense -- like, everybody has input but the winner is still the man or woman in charge.

That's pretty much how I view it in those instances, which is why I'm a bit surprised Fred shares your concern. My take on our Skype game sessions is that this is happening frequently.

Is there something in the text, or in your undertanding of the game, or in any way I've presented things that make you not use this approach?

Posted by: Matt Snyder at Apr 11, 2006 10:02:26 PM

Matt, that's a good question. I don't know the precise answer, but maybe the reason is that the rules specify a particular order of narration, and the players are going quiet in order to respect that order?

Posted by: Neel Krishnaswami at Apr 12, 2006 4:27:14 PM

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