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August 14, 2006

The Adventures of Cheese and Rose

Posted by Jim Henley on August 14, 2006 at 11:47 PM

All you talk about is roleplaying with your kids, Jim!

Uh, yeah. And this is more of it.

I don't want the mashup and so-far fragmentary gender discussion (fragmentary on my part) to utterly dominate consideration of Clinton's cool new game for parents and kids. So this thread will be the actual-play-in-progress thread for our campaign.

After we determined that my daughter was determined to play a princess, not a "girl prince," we got on with the rest of chargen. The most important number in the prince-creation process is your Prince's age. Your age gives you, first of all, that many six-sided dice that function like attribute dice in Dogs in the Vineyard. If you're 10 years old, you get 10d6 in basic power. You roll all 10 at the start of every Struggle, the TPK name for a conflict. You don't split them up into attributes. Also, your age determines how many Strong and Troublesome qualities, and how many Strong and Troublesome Relationships, your Prince gets. Another cluster of differences from Dogs comes up here:

  • The d10 is not used (no, not for Fallout either);
  • All Strong qualities and relationships have a value of 1d8;
  • All Troublesome qualities and relationships have a value of 1d4;
  • No qualities or relationships are scored in d6s - only Age ("Power" for Guide characters);
  • No single quality or relationship is worth multiple dice - there are no 2d8 or 3d4 qualities/relationships

The above are much of what makes TPK into "Dogs Lite." It certainly seems easier for kids to grasp. Also, by eliminating the d10, you take away the possibility of "instant death" Fallout. It's still possible to get "dying/healing struggle needed" fallout.

It seems like the consolidation of the attribute dice into a single score will make escalation a less pressing issue. Moving from talking to fighting will only get you any dice you have in fighting-related qualities or belongings, not a bunch of possible attribute dice on top of that. Of course, Fallout changes too. At a guess, it makes resorting to violence less tempting.This is an interesting change, and I wouldn't dream of calling it good or bad in advance.

So, my six-year-old daughter decided her Princess would be named "Rose," since Briar Rose was Sleeping Beauty's other name. My son decided his Prince would be named "Cheese." After Proving his Prince (the TPK analog to Dogs Achievement) he ended up with a Troubled Relationship with a wise owl named "Eggs."

The way seriously fascinating thing to me here is that this is a chance to observer gamer/geek silliness-as-defense-mechanism in the wild. My son can't quote a single Monty Python sketch and has never seen an episode of Star Trek or crawled a dungeon. But here he is, presented with a "narrativist" RPG and the first thing he does with his authority is get a little silly.

And yet, and here again the breed proves true, his enthusiasm for the game is genuine and he's really throwing himself into it.

Ages! Both kids skewed old. My daughter wanted Rose to be sixteen, but these go to twelve, not 16, so she settled on 11. My son. After that come qualities and relationships. Everyone has to have "I'm a Prince/Princess" as a strong or troublesome quality. The rest are freeform, and help constitute not just the PCs but the game world itself, e.g. by sighting in the magic level the players want. What follows are the pre-Proving writeups:

Princess Rose, 11 years old

Strong Qualities (2)

  • I'm a Princess
  • I have a green thumb

Troublesome Qualities (3)

  • I sometimes sneak off without telling people
  • I hate fighting
  • Claustrophobia

Strong Relationship (1)

  • Prince Cheese

Troublesome Relationship (2)

  • Bacon the squirrel
  • TBD

Belongings

  • Princess Cloak, pink, yellow and purple (Good - d6)
  • Magic Wand (Awesome! - d8)
  • Sword (Good - d6+d4)
  • Shield (Good)

Prince Cheese, 12 years old

Strong Quality (1)

  • I can talk to animals

Troublesome Qualities (3)

  • I'm a Prince
  • I'm squeamish about insects
  • I hate the sea

Strong Relationship (1)

  • TBD

Troublesome Relationships (2)

  • Princess Rose
  • TBD

Belongings

  • Princes' Cloak (Good - d6)
  • Sword (Awesome, shoots energy beams too - d8 + d4)
  • Shield (Good, w/ rollers for ease of transport - d6)

We absolutely see some real life issues coming into play here. My son really is squeamish about insects, to the point where it's hard for him to have fun outside. And the real-life brother-sister relationship is pretty well encapsulated in that Strong on one side / Troubled on the other side dichotomy. OTOH, my daughter never sneaks off without telling people and my son does not hate the sea.

In general, so far my son "gets" roleplaying in a way my daughter does not. I'm not sure where the age divide falls but they're definitely on opposite sides of it. For instance, Bacon the Squirrel exists because I read the examples of troublesome relationships from the book to my daughter when she was blanking and a squirrel that's always trying to steal your food was one of the examples. She liked it and picked it.

Next up: We Prove the Prince and Princess. That'll go in comments with an update here.

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Comments

Jim,

I just want you to know that I'm following these with extreme interest. I want to hear more!

Thomas

Posted by: Thomas Robertson at Aug 16, 2006 12:30:06 AM

Jim,

Thanks for posting these - they're entertaining and enlightening.

You wrote:

"The way seriously fascinating thing to me here is that this is a chance to observer gamer/geek silliness-as-defense-mechanism in the wild. My son can't quote a single Monty Python sketch and has never seen an episode of Star Trek or crawled a dungeon. But here he is, presented with a "narrativist" RPG and the first thing he does with his authority is get a little silly."

I played in a TPK game a few weeks ago with two folks who had never played an rpg before and the same "silliness-as-defense-mechanism" or perhaps "silliness-as-a-way-to-test-the-boundaries" came up in their character creation decisions. Pure speculation, but I wonder if gamer/geek silliness happens when you get stuck in and can't move beyond that natural (?) first response.

-Jon

Posted by: Jon Hastings at Aug 16, 2006 9:11:36 AM

I got to play with Prince Cheese and Princess Rose last night. It was a lot of fun. I played Prince Goose, their 5 year old brother. I went with the name Goose because I thought it fit nicely in between Cheese and Rose on the silly spectrum (and thus might make Cheese seem less silly) and to keep the monosyllabic noun ending in -se theme.

Princess Rose's player definitely had a lot of trouble with playing a structured roleplaying game. When she met someone who introduced herself as a princess, she wanted to play a game of "princesses meet each other and have tea" despite prompting that it was a Bad Sign that this girl called herself a princess in OUR kingdom. On the other hand, she was really good when I refused to eat my peas and was happy to have a Struggle with me to force me to eat my peas.

Prince Cheese's player was more comfortable with the whole idea of playing the game. He was very frustrated with his sister when she would lose focus on the game. He also got upset when Princess Rose and Prince Goose got into the pea Struggle. He seemed to think that we were derailing the game by having an intra-party Struggle...despite the GM telling him that intra-party Struggles were a good thing.

Prince Goose is 5 years old
Strong qualities:
I'm a Prince!
Rocks talk to me, but I don't talk to them
I'm awesome at Hide n' Seek
I'm very cute
I'm Strong like Bull
Troublesome quality:
I'm afraid of Yucky things
Strong relationships:
Princess Rose (this was temporarily troublesome after the Pea Struggle)
Prince Cheese
Truman
Troublesome relationships:
My pet rock Maximillian
(Princess Rose)
My Stuff:
A good Cloak that looks like a soft blanket with a bear on it
An awesome Shield that is secretly a turtle named Truman
An awesome Bottle that is always full of milk
I proved that:
Five years old is plenty old enough!

Over the course of the adventure I gained:
A crummy Witch's Bag of winds
An awesome obsidian fishing pole

Posted by: Bill Dowling at Aug 17, 2006 1:38:24 PM

Sorry for the utterly crappy formatting of Prince Goose's character sheet.

Posted by: Bill Dowling at Aug 17, 2006 1:40:53 PM

Bill and I were IMing about whether Toby has "gamer baggage," which is a fascinating question since he has no background in tabletop gaming. It would suggest that some of what gets classed as "gamer baggage" actually goes deeper than simple habit formed by playing "trad" games.

I loved Bill's character and it was great having him in the session. One thing he and I discussed after the session last night, though, is my sense that his character is "too perfect a five-year-old character to have ever been produced by a five-year-old."

Because my daughter fell asleep, we didn't get to do much with "Princess" Garnet. As things went on I recognized that it's a Perfectly Fine Reaction for Princess Rose to honor Garnet's self-bestowed Princesshood. The twist is that Garnet is written as kind of a jerk, letting rockside boys bring her grass skirts that they're essentially stealing or bullying out of the leesiders.

Anyway, any game where your son's answer to the central problem is to "shut down the volcano" is a cool game. More later.

Posted by: Jim Henley at Aug 17, 2006 2:56:15 PM

I've become a little skeptical about "gamer baggage" myself. Not skeptical that it exists, but skeptical that it is caused solely by tabletop rpg playing.

For instance, last year I ran two sessions of InSpectres, with two different groups of folks who had never really played a tabletop rpg before (a few of them had gotten ahold of some D&D3e stuff and decided it would be too much work to actually play).

In each group, one player created an archetypal "super competent loner with no emotional ties to anyone or anything" character. I was familiar with this kind of character both from my own play experience but also all those "worst character concept"-type threads on rpg.net.

One of the players ended up grooving on the game, but the other was somewhat upset that his character concept didn't make him immune to Stress.

Posted by: Jon Hastings at Aug 17, 2006 3:25:02 PM

I brought up the "Gamer Baggage" term and I did it because clearly it wasn't actually gamer baggage. I'm reasonably sure that there is such a thing as gamer baggage, but like socialization in general, I think people think they see it a lot more than they actually do.

I have no problem, by the way, with Prince Goose being "too perfect a five-year-old character to have ever been produced by a five-year-old." I wasn't trying to roleplay a 5 year old while I was creating the character, I started that after I was done creating him. I'm pretty sure that if I had created a character for this game when I was 5, he'd have had a Big Tonka Truck and a Spaceship for stuff. I think Truman is cooler now. (I created Truman solely because both of the other characters had Shields and Jim had mentioned that Toby really wanted Rose to have a shield...but I wanted something different. It paid off at the end of the night when I raised with having Truman deliver a message to Prince Cheese for me (since Cheese can talk to animals).)

The "right solution" for the island seemed pretty clear to me. Toby decided that the solution was "Plug the Volcano" and I started thinking of how to explain to him that that wasn't the right solution. And then I totally snapped back into sanity and just chimed in with a "Yeah! We're going to plug the volcano!" I even helped rationalize how plugging the volcano might actually solve the problem.

Posted by: Bill Dowling at Aug 17, 2006 5:27:03 PM

I have no problem, by the way, with Prince Goose being "too perfect a five-year-old character to have ever been produced by a five-year-old."

Oh me neither. And I think it helped expand the kids ideas of what Princes (Princesses) can be like. It did interest the heck out of me, though. Esp since Ellie and Toby are both trying to roleplay their ideas of what older characters are like, having you roleplay your idea of a younger character at the same time was really neat.

Posted by: Jim Henley at Aug 17, 2006 6:04:44 PM

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